Curse

Kelen · Dec 10, 2008, 04:21 AM // 04:21

This is just more of a musing than a question, as there is next to no professional history, but I was just pondering whether Abaddon would've granted professional powers to his devout followers.

If the followers of Lyssa are granted the Mesmeric arts, followers of Melandru the Ranger's craft etc. etc...

Where does Abaddon fit into the picture?

Any thoughts?

Konig Des Todes · Dec 10, 2008, 04:27 AM // 04:27

I'm sure he would fit with either Paragons or Dervishes of times past, but when he got sent to the RoT, any profession connection would have been whipped clean. So looking at the professions themselves, you cannot tell.

However, seeing how Lord Jadoth, the first Margonite blessed by Abaddon, and Varesh Ossa are Paragons - at least after being "blessed" - I'd have to say Paragon is linked to Abaddon.

Just as the Facet of Spirit, i.e., Kormir's Facet, is a Dervish, her profession link would be Dervish, despite being a Paragon as a mortal.

Sin City Gamer · Dec 10, 2008, 06:10 AM // 06:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azazel The Assassin

However, seeing how Lord Jadoth, the first Margonite blessed by Abaddon, and Varesh Ossa are Paragons - at least after being "blessed" - I'd have to say Paragon is linked to Abaddon.

Just as the Facet of Spirit, i.e., Kormir's Facet, is a Dervish, her profession link would be Dervish, despite being a Paragon as a mortal.

Lord Jadoth could very well have been an accomplished Paragon prior to his conversion into the first Margonite, but that particular argument isn't why I'm posting...

Varesh was a Dervish prior to her transformation into a Margonite, and even then other than carrying a spear, she showed no signs of actually being a Paragon. (see the talk page on the link you provided for a breakdown of that argument)

As for Kormir's "facet" being a dervish and not a paragon, the dervishes of the world are the holy warriors of all the gods, so it would make sense for ANY of the facets to be a dervish. Granted, warriors make sense for Balthazar, monks for Dwayna, etc etc etc, but given the dervishes connection to the gods, not just god, puts them in the position of being a propos for any of the facets.

I am going to have to respectfully disagree with you Azazel. There is no concrete evidence linking Abaddon (or Kormir, for that matter) to any specific profession.

Konig Des Todes · Dec 10, 2008, 06:22 AM // 06:22

I wasn't saying that was concrete, I was saying there are implications of that.

And your points are equally valid, and equally invalid. It can be either or in this case really. Although your points bring up a better argument.

Sin City Gamer · Dec 10, 2008, 06:34 AM // 06:34

Ahhhh...

Then I apologize for my misread of your post.

Either way, it is a very interesting question.

Some classes are very clearly tied to specific gods (Warriors to Balthazar, mesmers to Lyssa), whereas others are not. (Assassins to both Lyssa and Grenth, elementalists depending on thier element of focus, etc.)

One would assume that a class would be linked with Abaddon, but barring more insight to his true nature prior to his imprisonment, it's hard to say.

Konig Des Todes · Dec 10, 2008, 06:46 AM // 06:46

Well, Abaddon is the God of Secrets and water so prior to his fall, Water Elementalists would fall under him.

Although I guess we can say, other then that, there is no definitive profession under him, but anyone who lived at sea (i.e., Margonites pre-"blessed") and traders would go under him, and most of whatever professions they would be.

There is also the case of, except for one year, professions were not a wide account. Also, even the first blessed of Abaddon was in that year. So it is also very likely there was no profession to Abaddon.

With that in mind we can say that, while the other five gods had blessed/chosen followers (i.e., Desmina for Grenth), the professions themselves didn't exist prior to 1 BE, except for those few chosen followers. That is except for the non-magic professions (and attributes).

Meaning, prior to 1 BE, only Ritualists (as proven by An Empire Divided they exists before Abaddon gave magic to the world), Assassins (in terms of Dagger Mastery, and some Critical Strikes), Warriors (maybe not all skills, but most of what we see), Rangers (at least charm animal and Marksmanship/Expertise, possibly other things as well), Paragons (at least with Spear Mastery, not sure about all those shouts), and Dervishes (at least Scythe Mastery). And on that, a generic wand/staff whacking guy (i.e., using staves as melee weapons).

Eh, I'm starting to ramble on now.

Free Runner · Dec 10, 2008, 07:49 AM // 07:49

Concept art of what appeared to be Abaddon before his fall was on the pre release CD and is hidden on a few dungeon walls. On it hes wielding a scythe. So he could of been the patron god of the Dervish profession. Additionally as Azazel said, Water Elementalists would of no doubt followed him before the handover to Grenth.

xanarot · Dec 10, 2008, 09:37 AM // 09:37

Generally the following is used.
Balthazar;
Warrior, Fire ele, Smite/prot monks, com/spear paragons, balth dervishes.

Dwayna;
Monks, air ele's, wind prayer/dwayna dervishes, leader/mot paragons.

Grenth;
Necromancers, water ele's, assassins, ritualists, grenth dervishes

Lyssa;
Mesmers, assassins, lyssa dervishes or regular dervishes (those without an avatar and no wind prayers and no earth prayers). However, ele's also seem aligned to lyssa trough energy storage.

Melandru;
Rangers, earth ele's, melandru/earth prayer dervishes

All this can be gathered from the god's descriptions in-game.

NOTE
The only missing is Paragon, which seems hidden in the lines of the following;
"Balthazar gives strength to soldiers marching into battle and any adventurer who’s ready for a fight. He guides the sharpened edge of a sword or axe so that it cuts deeply. Many insist that he watches over the battlegrounds of the world to see who glorifies his name"
This indicates him as a commander; the aid on hitting/deeply and increasing soldiers strength in battle is exactly what the paragon does. The reason this is for sure, is that the champions of balthazar give paragon boosts when kneeled in front of it.
For dwayna, the only indication to the paragon is the mention about "wings" which is often seen on paragons.

So yes, dervish is indeed for all gods; the avatar and attribute choises decide which god he/she worships.

As for water ele's, you can watch the description that water ele's werent part of grenth in the discription untill Nightfall, while the ele's were already mentioned for the other gods. This implicates that water ele's were indeed part of abaddon. When abaddon became their enemy/was slain, they chose a new god; grenth. Reason being that death is often considered 'cold' and that necromancers were already using cold (thus water) magic. This could be the reason why water ele's arent mentioned under any god untill Nightfall.

Rick Thene · Dec 10, 2008, 10:06 AM // 10:06

Also, that excerpt from Abbadon's Scripture says he gifted Jadoth with magic, and that magic allowed Jadoth to cause storms and sink ships at sea.
For that, my vote goes to Water Eles.
That of course raises the question as to why Jadoth is a Paragon now...

Free Runner · Dec 10, 2008, 01:03 PM // 13:03

Jadoth was Abaddons best tactician. And Paragons are natural Commanders. So having him as a Paragon makes sense.

As for Dervishes following all 5 gods that is true. But before the outcast they could of followed him, later following all 5 gods. Both Kayhet and Varesh are dervishes and Kayhet was Varesh's teacher.

ac1inferno · Dec 10, 2008, 03:46 PM // 15:46

Balthazar is the god of war and fire, and Patron god of Warriors, Pyromancers, Protection and Smiting Monks, and Command and Spear Paragons. Dwayna is the goddess of life and air. She is the patroness goddess of Monks (particularly Healing Monks), Aeromancers and Leadership and Motivation Paragons, and is considered the leader of the old gods. Several Monk healing spells are named after Dwayna. Grenth is the god of death and ice. He is the lord of the Underworld and the patron god of Ritualists, Necromancers, and Hydromancers. Lyssa (sometimes only called Lyss) is the twin goddess of beauty and illusion. She is the patroness goddess of Mesmers and Assassins. She is also associated with Energy, Chaos and the attributes of Energy Storage and Mysticism. Melandru is the goddess of earth and nature. She is the patroness goddess of Rangers, Earth Dervishes and Geomancers.

Abaddon is the name of a dark fallen god that was outcast by the Gods of Tyria long ago and exiled to the Realm of Torment. He was formerly the God of Water and Knowledge and known to the Order of the Whispers as the God of Secrets.

Kormir, the Goddess of Truth is the immortal incarnation of Kormir, the former Spearmarshal of the Order of the Sunspears. After having defeated the fallen god Abaddon, Kormir absorbed the divine power that was released, sacrificing herself, and thereby became an immortal god, taking over from Abaddon the powers of the God of Knowledge and Truth.

It is suspected that Grenth may have replaced Abaddon as the god of water, however this is never outright stated, and the water portfolio may have been divided between several gods.

Free Runner · Dec 10, 2008, 04:22 PM // 16:22

All that is...common knowledge.....and it holds very little relevence to the OP's question.

Also its true that it never outright states that Grenth tookover Water once Abaddon was defeated, but its also never said the other gods had anything to do with water.

Dhuum is only ever labeled as the god of death (unlike Grenth, he ruled from the Chaos Planes) and the other 5 gods each have their own element or power. So its logical to say that Grenth became the god of death when he defeated Dhuum and was later given rule over Water, due to there being no sixth god.

xanarot · Dec 10, 2008, 08:07 PM // 20:07

Actually it says it all. Its the same as in the in-game lore (see my post); all proffesions got their own god, or gods depending on their spec.

Actually it says about grenth, read the teksts. Proph/Fac; no mention of water/ele's for grenth. NF; suddenly water ele's in grenth's followers. Kinda says it all imo.
For reference; the god's descriptions were properly updates for factions and nf with new text and to include the new proffesions, so that change must've been intentional.

Your thought on dhuum cant be accurate, since if that is the case there should be 5 elements or that argument doesnt hold.. there are only 4.. says enough?
Also, there are 6 gods. Always have, always will; if a god dies it must be replaced to control that part of the universe/planet/forces or however you prefer to call it that keeps balance. That is also why the gods couldnt kill abaddon. In that perspective, there should even be 6 elements instead of the known 4, to further destroy your argument on elements.

As abaddon clearly had his powers left while being captured (aiding varesh, controlling his minions, altering the lands etc) he must also still have had control over his share of the proffessions untill he was slain.
This further strenghtens the fact that water ele's werent mentioned anywhere despite earth/fire/air being mentioned seperatly since the start of prophecies.
Is it;
a) more logical to assume they missed water ele for 2 years in the description, and again when rewriting the descriptions for factions and just had to dump water ele's in somewhere?
OR
b) more logical to assume they left out water ele's for 2 years, since they already had the god abaddon on paper about being god of water but just didnt mention it for being a spoiler?

Konig Des Todes · Dec 10, 2008, 09:07 PM // 21:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by xanarot

Actually it says about grenth, read the teksts. Proph/Fac; no mention of water/ele's for grenth. NF; suddenly water ele's in grenth's followers. Kinda says it all imo.
For reference; the god's descriptions were properly updates for factions and nf with new text and to include the new proffesions, so that change must've been intentional.

... Although I recall Grenth being the patron god of water elementals prior to NF, I'm going to have to do some digging for this, as it is in-game stuff that states this. Of course, other then statue blessings in Factions.

Quote:

Originally Posted by xanarot

Your thought on dhuum cant be accurate, since if that is the case there should be 5 elements or that argument doesnt hold.. there are only 4.. says enough?
Also, there are 6 gods. Always have, always will; if a god dies it must be replaced to control that part of the universe/planet/forces or however you prefer to call it that keeps balance. That is also why the gods couldnt kill abaddon. In that perspective, there should even be 6 elements instead of the known 4, to further destroy your argument on elements.

What is considered elements are opinionated really, there are 4 "positive" elements, but depending on where you go you can see up to 9 elements. Those being:

Four Core:
Air
Water
Earth
Fire

Additional:
Metal (usually in Asian cultures)
Rock
Ice
Ether (the most universal "5th element")
Time

Of course, Rock and Ice, even Metal for that matter, are just variations of Water and Earth, so those are usually ruled out as elements, but Ether and Time still exist, and are sometimes considered elements. Ether, in the GW universe, I surmise would be considered the Mists.

As for your comment on Dhuum, I'll leave that to Free Runner to rebuttal, as I think you misunderstood what he said, and if you didn't then I either misunderstood FR, or I misunderstand you.

Quote:

Originally Posted by xanarot

As abaddon clearly had his powers left while being captured (aiding varesh, controlling his minions, altering the lands etc) he must also still have had control over his share of the proffessions untill he was slain.
This further strenghtens the fact that water ele's werent mentioned anywhere despite earth/fire/air being mentioned seperatly since the start of prophecies.
Is it;
a) more logical to assume they missed water ele for 2 years in the description, and again when rewriting the descriptions for factions and just had to dump water ele's in somewhere?
OR
b) more logical to assume they left out water ele's for 2 years, since they already had the god abaddon on paper about being god of water but just didnt mention it for being a spoiler?

Abaddon did have his powers as the God of Knowledge, which was taken over by Kormir, but why isn't Kormir considered the Goddess of Knowledge and Water? She is the Goddess of Knowledge and Truth.

So where did Water go?
To Grenth.

Because of that, I have to go with a) of what you said, despite the "somewhere." As many things of the water magic line deals with ice, and since Grenth has always been the God of Death and Ice, I think it is safe to assume that they simply forgot to put that down in the manuscripts of Prophecies.

Free Runner · Dec 10, 2008, 09:28 PM // 21:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by xanarot

Actually it says about grenth, read the teksts. Proph/Fac; no mention of water/ele's for grenth. NF; suddenly water ele's in grenth's followers. Kinda says it all imo.
For reference; the god's descriptions were properly updates for factions and nf with new text and to include the new proffesions, so that change must've been intentional.

What?

If Earth Elementalists follow Melandru who rules over Earth anf Fire Eles follow Balthazar who rules over fire....you should instantly realise that Water Eles would follow the god of ice/water/cold.....which is Grenth.

Quote:

Your thought on dhuum cant be accurate, since if that is the case there should be 5 elements or that argument doesnt hold.. there are only 4.. says enough?

Again...what?

My thoughts on Dhumm where that he never had an element, meaning Grenth never had one ether. I never said there were five elements. Balthazar, Dwayna, Melandru and Abaddon rule over the four elements. With Abaddon gone there would need to be a new god to rule over Water. And Grenth is that god.

Quote:

Also, there are 6 gods. Always have, always will; if a god dies it must be replaced to control that part of the universe/planet/forces or however you prefer to call it that keeps balance. That is also why the gods couldnt kill abaddon. In that perspective, there should even be 6 elements instead of the known 4, to further destroy your argument on elements.

I'm very lost now.

There are four elements. Four. I never said there were five or six. Here i'll simplify it.

6 gods.

4 rule over the elements, Fire, Water, Earth and Air.

The god who rules over Water is defeated and imprisoned.

There are now 3 gods who rule over elements.

The god of death gets that lost element.

There are now 5 gods. 4 rule over elements.

Gmr Leon · Dec 12, 2008, 12:42 AM // 00:42

I would say Lyssa also holds domain over an element, Ether, as Konig (Azazel) listed. This is suggested by the relation to Energy Storage in one of her blessings,

Getting back in line with the original question...

I think it's completely viable for Abaddon to have been the God of Hydromancers, Paragons, and Dervishes. Dervishes, in that he was the God of Knowledge, and hence would provide enlightenment regarding his fellow Gods and Goddesses, in short, the scriptures to allow to them praise the Six Gods devoutly. Paragons in that they are known as commanders of the battlefield, which requires tactical and strategic intelligence, intelligence lending itself to knowledge, thus leading to praise of the God of Knowledge.

However, the pitfall that lies in this argument is that then one could attribute all the professions to worshiping Abaddon at one point in time.

BrettM · Dec 16, 2008, 07:42 PM // 19:42

I think an argument could be made for six "elements". Necromancers also do Dark/Shadow damage, and this was likely Grenth's province before he added Water to his portfolio. That would give us air, earth, fire, water, ether/chaos, dark/shadow.

Konig Des Todes · Dec 16, 2008, 08:46 PM // 20:46

BrettM, if you go that far, you need to add Holy damage. But those are less of elements of nature as they are aspects of life. There are only five real elements: Air, Earth, Ether, Fire, and Water. Dark, Chaos, and Holy damage would go more under elements, or aspects, of life. And then, we'd have eight.

Hyper Cutter · Dec 16, 2008, 09:16 PM // 21:16

I assumed Abaddon was the patron god of elementalists, and once the other gods defeated him they each took over an aspect of that profession.

Look at the temple from the Depths of Madness, the Margonites guarding the shrines during the mission. Abaddon's shrine is unguarded, and Margonite Sorcerers are the only core class not present...

Konig Des Todes · Dec 16, 2008, 09:53 PM // 21:53

As Elementalist worship multiple gods, you cannot put them at a single god. Abaddon was the God of Water and Secrets. Not the God of Elements and Secrets.